Game on: Winning the Champions League – with Sharon Bennett (ENGL)

What happens when sports marketing meets real emotions, data-driven decisions, and the dynamic of global leagues? In this English-speaking episode of "Agency Life", Robin and Louise speak with Sharon Bennett, Head of Client Services at WePlay, one of the most exciting sports marketing agencies in Europe. What does it take to support top teams like Paris Saint-Germain digitally? And why are women and niche sports often the more exciting challenge? An honest look behind the scenes of high-performance campaigns, fan activation, and agency work in an exceptional state. Welcome to "Agency Life Germany", today with Sharon Bennett. At this point we would like to tell you why we and our partner Teamleader are so excited about this podcast. We invite exciting personalities from the agency scene to every episode. With your knowledge and experiences, we want to create inspiration and motivation, at the pulse of the time for the agency world. And that's exactly where Teamleader uses its powerful agency software. It already helps over 4,000 agencies to keep deadlines, control budgets, increase profit margins, plan capacities, and much more. So that you can fully concentrate on your creativity. From agencies to agencies. And let's get started with today's episode. We've been looking at this a lot really. And we've, we've, we've, this is not new, but the combining of arts and science is something that I think we do, WePlay do incredibly well. So understanding, you know, sport is an emotional industry. It's an emotional, the fans are emotional. You're talking to, you know, raw emotions when we're talking to audiences, which I think is quite unique to someone. Maybe that's going to buy a product off the shelf, or buy a finance product. So that in itself is, is quite unique and, and tapping into those different audiences who are continually changing as sports evolves, as generations evolve, you know, and their tastes and communities evolve. So there's a constant state of change. There's also a lot of unknowns, much like the champions. You don't know if you're going to win, you know, you don't know what the next season looks like. What your partners might be. So you know, there's that being able to be very agile and change and, and I think it's much, it feels much more, much quicker and you have to be much more agile than when I've worked in other, for other industries. How do you grow big shot clients while the world is watching? In sports marketing, it's always game on. Projects move fast and beyond nine to five. Everything is highly data driven and you need an agile team that, like a true Johan Cruyff, knows where the ball is. Welcome to Agency Live, the podcast for agency leaders and decision makers navigating the beautiful chaos of our industry. I'm Louise. And I'm Robin. Today we're tackling plenty of hot agency topics from risk and portfolio management to building adaptable teams and managing the expectations of some of the most demanding clients in the world. Our guest today is Sharon Bennett. The head of client services at WePlay, a growth marketing agency for world-class sports brands, is an expert in the world of sports marketing. She's been working with companies like the UFC, AC Milan, Paris Saint-Germain and the FIFA. Sharon's job: to turn those headline-grabbing names into long-term accounts. Sharon has over 15 years of experience, including work on global events like the Olympics and the Cricket World Cup. She now helps WePlay scale smart, grow sustainably and navigate a volatile industry. What can agencies learn from the front lines of sports marketing? How do you build high-value relationships and how can they help you to reach your goals? Let's find out. Welcome to Agency Life. But first, a quick word from our sponsor. Because everyone knows that only winning teams work with Teamleader Orbit. If you're juggling a million clients, a thousand pitches and a team that's half remote and half running on caffeine, you're not alone. Growing an agency means you're operational. And that's where Teamleader Orbit comes in. It gives you a clear view of your pipeline, your people and your profitability, so you can grow smarter, not just harder. Curious to see it in action? Then head over to teamleader.eu and book a demo today. All right, let's get back to the pitch and let's hear from Sharon. Hey, Sharon. Welcome to our podcast. Hi, guys. Nice to see you. Before we dive in, let us and get the audience get acquainted with sports marketing at WePlay. What services fall under the umbrella of sports marketing? So WePlay is full service in terms of sports marketing, in terms of we offer multiple services, certainly more than four. So it covers everything from strategy and creative strategy and business and strategy, digital media, creative services and technology. We have a number of proprietary products that we offer our clients. So we can offer the full service, or we can specialize in just one for our clients. Not too long ago, or not that long ago, Paris Saint-Germain claimed the historic Champions League title. A double question in that regard. Which part did WePlay play in all that? And how did you, yourself and your team experience the win? Could you enjoy it or did it just create more hard work? Well, where do I start? Yeah, certainly working with Paris Saint-Germain is fantastic. And the agency WePlay, I've worked with them for many years. I've been fortunate to be at WePlay for just under two years now. And as you say, they most recently won, well, a number of trophies, including the iconic Champions League trophy. So we were working with them throughout the entire competition. And as anyone that follows the Champions League will know, you don't know if you're going to be in the final. So a lot of it is contingency planning, scenario planning to understand what will happen should they qualify. Should they get into the quarterfinals, the semi and then the final. So yeah, a broad set of services for them, mainly around digital media and digital strategy. And did we watch it? We were all watching it on the Saturday evening. We have a WhatsApp channel with the client and it was incredibly exciting. And I'm sure anyone that likes or knows football and is aware of Paris Saint-Germain, their entire approach to the team strategy and also on and off the pitch is very innovative. And they're trying something quite unique within that top tier of football or soccer. So yeah, super interesting. And the partnership continues as they're off to the Club World Cup, the FIFA Club World Cup. So the partnership continues through that as well. What according to you makes the Sport Marketing Agency different? I think we've been looking at this a lot really, and this is not new, but the combining of arts and science is something that I think we play incredibly well. So understanding, you know, sport is an emotional industry. It's an emotional, the fans are emotional, you're talking to, you know, raw emotions when we're talking to audiences, which I think is quite unique to someone maybe that's going to buy a product off the shelf or buy a fan. So that in itself is quite unique and tapping into those different audiences who are continually changing as sports evolves, as generations evolve, you know, and their tastes and communities evolve. So there's a constant state of change. There's also a lot of unknowns, much like the champions. You don't know if you're going to win, you know, you don't know what the next season looks like or even who your partners might be. You know, there's that being able to be very agile and change, and I think it's much, it feels much more, much quicker and you have to be much more agile than when I've worked in other, for other industries. Do you feel that the expectations are higher because, you know, when you work for Paris Saint-Germain, everybody is looking at you? Yeah, definitely. There's a real, there's definitely a need, we work with high performance teams, not exclusively, but we also, we also like to support, I personally do as well, the growth of awareness of sports that need to increase participation, perhaps less well-known sports, but for the majority of our clients, the top tier of elite sports performance, the professionals that we work with day to day are at that level as well. They're working with the CEOs, the chairmen, the owners of those particular clubs. So what comes with that is, is that expectation, which is high, and they want results quickly. And they want to know that everything we're doing is driven by data and their KPIs. So that brings another level of pressure as well, but it's good. I mean, I think in the fact that we work across so many different sports allows us to transfer knowledge across different, within the sports ecosystem, the different types of sports properties you might have. To me, it feels that the world of sport marketing is still very much developing, that the template's not there yet. Do you feel that at WePlay? That you guys are at the forefront of that? Absolutely. Yeah. I genuinely do. We are really, there are some set templates within sport, playbooks within sport that are quite traditional, but it's such a fast-paced evolving industry, both in terms of the different platforms that are available to fans to engage with sports. The different formats are changing, the fragmentation of media in which fans can access sport, I'm sure you know, is increasingly fragmented. So we're constantly evolving to work with rights holders, with clubs, and even broadcasters to understand what do our clients need to do to stay relevant and adapt to those changes in the industry. Sports consumption is changing a lot, and hence the work we're doing within gaming or e-sports platforms is also an interesting area to talk to new fans. Some of those playbooks are very new, if not written yet, and being tested really, a lot of what we do, we're very, where we can with clients, we do encourage that sort of test and learn approach so that we can, if possible, see how things perform, but not be afraid to shift, and if they're not working into a slightly different approach and strategy. So yeah, I certainly think that we are leading in some of those areas for sure. Is it a competitive market? Is it the world of sports marketing? Yes, it is. You have some traditional agencies that are sort of what I call kind of pure sports marketing, and that's all they've done, and that's what they do. And then you have some of the larger networked agencies that are definitely, you know, working with brands that are operating within sport, whether it's through partnerships. And so that's adding to competition, then you have some really niche boutique agencies that maybe specialize in just certain sports, so, you know, and have done for a long time. So it is competitive. I guess it makes it exciting. We don't tend to sort of find that we're always, because we're quite full, we're quite integrated and offer a number of different services, it does mean that we are not always coming up against the sort of same, as far as I'm aware, agency sets that we compete against, but it does, it's not, it's also the competition for talent and, you know, in recruitment. Sport is a great industry, and people, a lot of interest, and a lot of people want to work in sport, and we want to make sure we get, you know, the best people as well, but that are right for WePlay, but equally it's competitive, so, you know, it's competitive in a number of ways. And I guess the other thing I'm seeing more of at the moment is clients building out internal teams, which I know isn't unique to sport. But as you mentioned earlier, Robin, I think some areas, some businesses within, or teams within, sports organizations are less mature, but I think as they mature, that often comes with their growth of growing out those internal teams and offerings, which has pros and cons, you know, I think. Well, let's shine a light on you specifically, Sharon, for a second, because you are currently leading client services at WePlay, working with some of those biggest names in global sports, but how would you, yourself, describe your role? What is it that you do on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis? Yeah, the head of client services role, particularly at WePlay, combines a number of different areas, so it's very much operational, so understanding, you know, who are the people we need, who are the teams we need, how do they operate effectively together, what are the systems and processes that we might use? But equally, it's on looking at our, obviously, delivery, how we're servicing clients, are we meeting their expectations, meeting their KPI, so it's about performance. And then it's also about growth and, you know, how do we as a business continue to grow our clients, not just from a sort of revenue perspective, although clearly that's very important, but just, you know, the opportunities that we see for our clients to be more successful, and how do we take that? So, I'm often, I guess, spinning a lot of plates, as you say, and that needs to happen in this role, it has to be quite holistic. What are the main metrics that your clients are looking for at the moment? Yeah, I mean, there are several, so it can range from reaching new audiences in new markets, so, you know, reaching markets they're not currently in or just expanding their market share and audiences in those particular markets. It could be social growth. You know, for some of our clients, it's really about building their, the number of their, not just vanity metrics, but just the engagement and the quality of their fans. For some of our clients, it's who have a huge audience base already, it could be how do we monetize those fans? So, how do we build loyalty? How do we introduce them to membership programs or subscriptions that you might find? So, it will vary depending on the project, but everything we do is very much grounded in data to really inform what those KPIs are and then a strategy for how we're going to get there. How do you make those KPIs, those raw numbers on a sheet? How do you make them meaningful to those high-level clients? So, you're absolutely right. We work with a lot of data and a lot of numbers and depending on clearly how senior often the stakeholder is, they're time poor. So, really, it's about how do we really draw from all of the data and the KPIs that we've reached, the key insights that will inform, you know, their strategies and their growth plans themselves. So, it might be that they are looking for specific numbers to attract different partners or moving into a different market where they need to, you know, open up conversations with new partners in that particular region. So, for us, as well as the data, it's about drawing those sort of so what moments from campaigns and activities and really turning that into tangible ideas that they can take, that the data will inform. So, that that might be a campaign, you know, it could be any number of things, but it's really important to really drawing from that data. What are the key insights and how does it address the challenges that they called out at the beginning of the campaign? And we do that in a number of different ways in terms of how we present back the data. I'm wondering how that works with new clients because in the early days of working with a client, you don't have the data to prove yet that you're doing good. So, how do you earn the trust of a new client and make them feel like things are moving? Yeah, I mean, you know, for many of our clients, that's often a part of the brief is, you know, they are relatively new or they've got a new format or product that they need to raise awareness of. And so, we're often brought in to help them build that data and really understand where the growth opportunities are. In terms of adding value to clients when they haven't got that data set already, we're very much in understanding what does good look like for them, even in the short term and then the longer term, and then making sure that we're meeting those short-term goals, but also with a view to that longer-term objective that that might have. On a practical sense, it's very much regular communications, you know, status updates, check-ins, all of the usual things you'd expect just to give the client that confidence that the team are working on that and that we are making progress and just really working with them to understand what those, even if they're relatively small compared to say a Paris Saint-Germain, what are the metrics that they need to help them and be successful and understanding what they are and how we can support that. There's probably different maturity levels in your partners then as well. I can imagine some sports brand saying, okay, we know the game, we want to sell more tickets, but then others say, okay, we want to get started in marketing or brand better for whatever goal. How do you approach that? Yeah, and you know what, for me, that makes the role exciting and we say sort of never two days are the same. And I think that's exactly where that sort of plays into it where, you could be working with an incredibly established competition organization. And as you say, their brief would be quite different. But equally, we work with new progressive, you know, emerging sports, sports properties, particularly in women's sport where there is still huge growth opportunities and a need to build sustainable growth strategies for women's sport. So we would look at different products, maybe different, the team structure and set up, we have a number of services and that we're trying to turn into a product offering. So it's much easier from a client's perspective to work with us in that way. And it's almost not quite off the shelf, but you know, we would clearly adapt it. The output isn't the same, but the methodology and the approach we use would be similar. So it's really about finding different sort of methodologies and ways of working. For those different teams and scaling teams as well. We don't always have to flood a team with lots and lots of people at different levels. Sometimes you need a small but perfectly formed team just to execute, you know, quickly, you know, with experience. So we're just adaptable. Do you personally prefer working with the big established competitions or setting up a new emerging club for success? Well, that's a good question. I think for me now, the exciting is perhaps some of these new emerging sports or sports that need perhaps more help, you know, in terms of, and not just because they're new, you know, and they don't have the current fan base. So that's probably for me a bigger challenge. It doesn't seem as, it doesn't necessarily have the profile and the news headlines such as the Champions League winners, but it still is an interesting challenge for us and one that I find really interesting when I'm talking to clients, particularly if it's a new client or even a pitch scenario is that we do have that flexibility and understand that just because we work with some of the top tier sports, we're very mindful of what needs to happen and the opportunities for new sports or sports that are less well known, you know, and therefore, so for me, I think probably new emerging sports. I'm also very supportive of, of sport for all, you know, and making sure that we can, how do we help our clients make their sports more accessible and increase and improve participation at all levels? Not everybody has the luxury of being able to play or train for certain elite sports, but sport is for all. So how do we make sure it's accessible? And that can come down to campaigns and messaging. And so I'm probably on that side, but don't get me wrong. I do enjoy being part of a winning team like Paris Saint-Germain, but I don't like to be part of a winning team. Yeah, I can imagine. Let's go back to this productization of your offering. Can you, can you maybe give an example of how that works? It's really where we work mainly in the digital media space. I think there are opportunities where without compromising on all of the smarts, and the creative and strategic thinking that goes into a campaign or an authoring. There are, I think, ways that we can develop or that we are looking at a product that can be repurposed and reused for different accounts. Now, it wouldn't mean that the actual end product is the same or the deliverable, but how we get there can be a lot quicker and perhaps more efficient because it's a tried and tested approach. So we're looking at how we can perhaps create, create some of those products for our clients, whether they need to just act fast. So we need a plug and pay option really quickly, or perhaps they are on that sort of more earlier part of their journey where they are building fans and therefore budgets quite frankly. So how can we be part of that journey with them by offering them something that's perhaps a bit more affordable and accessible, but that we know will work. So it's kind of like creating a package of like a starter pack to launch a new new club, something like that. Yeah, exactly. And that there's so many different options that one thing we are looking at and something I'm leading is how can we help women's sports? Now that could be developing a, you know, a toolkit for just for your marketing strategy. So it's a sort of, you know, what are the things you need to include? How can we help them? What can we template for them? And that could be community outreach. It could be, you know, launching of new players and the new kits. You know, there are different things, moments within the sporting calendar that I think we could develop more affordable or, you know, accessible products that we can give to those particular sports that really need support from agencies to sort of raise their game. How do you see automation adding value to the services we play? We were looking at it in a number of ways. We were looking at it both in terms of how we service our clients in, particularly within digital media. So, so, you know, are there elements of what we do within the digital sort of media and optimization process in terms of advertising that automation could come in and help time and make sure that if that's automated that allows us to spend more time, perhaps on strategy and really thinking that higher level equally we because of the what we do and it's so data driven. We have a lot of dashboards. As you'd imagine for reporting. So clearly, automation, automation for that is it is a key area and giving our clients real time, you know, access to their performance and data. We're working on a number of internal products ourselves that will be releasing soon that really give our clients the benefit of those automations. So they can come in and look at real-time performance and of their campaigns, you know, and perhaps revenue if they're selling tickets. So automating that I'm also thinking about it from more of a operational perspective. So, you know, what are the automation tools that we could use in terms of project and product delivery assigning from a project management methodology? Are there ways we can make that more efficient using automation or or AI? So yeah, exploring exploring options. Clearly, there's so many so much of what we do. Does rely on thankfully people and emotional connections and and lived experiences. So it's for us. It's going to be how do we blend the both to give our clients the best outcome? A lot of agency leaders who listen to this podcast that they might recognize the feeling big-name clients big budgets, sometimes big egos. What's your philosophy for managing those? Kinds of relationships? I think well, first of all, I think you know, for me personally, I have to have an ethos. You're only as good as your team. Okay, and and you know, bringing in the right people that have the right fit with our agency, but also our clients is a priority for me. So, you know, constantly thinking about, you know, the clients that we're dealing with that you say some of them that they don't have two bigger ego. Some of them do but you know, and who will be the right? What's the right team dynamic to work with those clients? I think if we I've talked a lot about, you know, the early stages of the client relationship and building trusted relationships quite transparent relation. I think if you can start there, then you can handle some of the different sort of egos and different characters that you might come across. We also try to make sure that we I spoke about the make the kind of makeup of the team depending on the client and the the chemistry. And who we're working with that would inform how I structure the team. And so we always make sure that there's a member of the SLT that's available that can be involved in the client relationship at depends on which level we need, but that will be available whether it's an escalation point or a once a quarter check-in. They would have the you know, a senior member of the team, but equally making sure that we've got the right dynamic the right chemistry of people within the team to service. Our client is super important that the chemistry and clients need to feel that we're as invested as they are in their business and that's not unique to sport. But I think the sport being such an emotional changeable industry. I think if they I know that if they if they feel they've got a team from we play that are on their side, you know on the bench with them then then we see that we can we can handle egos. I can imagine for the big shot clients the expectations are really high the opportunities maybe as well, but it's maybe not for everyone to work for these high-stakes clients. How do you manage that internally? Do you have people who work mainly on the emerging brands and then other people who work on the on the bigger clients at the moment, which I try personally with the team not to not to clearly a client needs a dedicated core team that they know and they work with regularly, but I'm very keen and try to be as proactive as to make sure members of the team get the opportunity to work with clients that they're interested in. What kind of talent do you attract at we play or more importantly? What kind of talent do you need to be successful in the fast-paced sports marketing world? So in terms of what kind of talent we need sport, as you know, is not 95 as we've touched on. So we need we're looking for people that you know, generally understand and are passionate about sport for one because then if they if they are they'll understand the the industry. And the ways in which we'll need to work potentially that's evenings. It could be weekend. So just under people that might need to understand that we were fortunate to be approached by a lot of people. So we're really we like proactivity. We like people that come with ideas that ask questions that perhaps challenge what we're doing and but also take themselves outside of their comfort zone because it's so changeable and we need to be agile. We kind of need people. Yes. The concept of staying but we need saying in your lane, but we also need people that are going to perhaps push themselves and try something new so that we can we can deploy the team quickly and that might need some different skill set. So people that are kind of up for that challenge, you know for perhaps not working the standard nine-to-five for trying new things passionate about sports. I think the the data side and being quite analytical is important that we play so much of what we do is based on data. And so data that then KPIs for our clients are people that understand that but equally we have a creative side of our business. So I'm always looking at that for me people that understand both the creative the arts and the science of what we do is really important. That doesn't seem like an easy job. So I'm wondering if is there room at we play for juniors for learning on the job or is it more of a Premier League environment? Where only the top players can survive. No, no, definitely not quite the opposite. We're really keen on bringing in new new talent talent. That's people that perhaps it's their first job, you know, or even second job and but just have those sort of unique traits and enthusiasm and energy that when we're when we're speaking to them, you kind of instantly know if they're going to work well within the within the environment of we play we have a nice cross-section of levels and hierarchy on accounts. It's we're very much, you know driven by respect and bringing in and mentoring and educating and training, you know, newer people in the business. Okay, let's turn it around and focus on the client for a bit. We hear in our conversations that client expectations have sometimes in a negative way expanded that clients will often send like a WhatsApp later. At night asking for an update on some sort of project and that sea levels at agencies have to push back on that. I could imagine that perhaps happening at bigger sports clubs or organizations or am I wrong Sharon? No, you're right. We do as I said as part of people that would want to working sport. It kind of comes with with the territory to a point that there is a desire a need to be not always on but being aware of the cycle of the client and you know, we are we play we work with global sports brands sports clubs. So in fact our two top markets currently a UAE and the u.s. So, you know that comes with the time zone considerations. And so whilst I wouldn't expect our team to be addressing things late at night, there might be an and there might be a need to be responsive during hours that aren't necessarily nine to five. What we look at is what that expectation might be based on the project or the campaign or the season and it might be that we introduced a slightly different working model like a rotational team. We have we have colleagues in different markets that helps at time zones making sure that as part of that onboarding phase, we we sort of establish ways of working rules of engagement. We call it so we know how we're going to work best together and what might be needed and giving ourselves time. To sort of structure a team and a way of working that supports the sports industry or that particular client that we're working with. But I find if you can be collaborative and talk to the client generally their understanding and that we can we can build out a scenario or an approach or structure that works for both of us. Have you ever had to reset expectations with a high-powered client at that? Did you ever have to send a message to like a Saudi Sheikh saying sorry? We can be available 24/7? Not quite like that. No, but we have we've worked with them to sort of establish what the main communication method would be and try to streamline the points of contact. So we're all you know, clear of what what's required and when and as I said rotational team. So we're sharing, you know across the team and you know what that actually builds camaraderie in the team because you're you're helping each other and it we might have to provide that say weekend cover for an event or and making sure if we're all working together to perhaps release the pressure from somebody else. It actually indirectly builds morale in the team because you are coming together to help each other out on the upside. You know, we have we're fortunate to be invited to some of the best sporting events in the in the calendar. So that there are pros to working within sport and around different sort of time zones, I guess, or different sort of working working days and we sometimes adapt based on the campaign. So we might require people to start early but finish early or give them some time back on a Friday and we obviously offer time off in lieu and all of that sort of stuff. But that comes with resourcing challenges itself. As we all know sports and entertainment works in sprints big championships, World Cups short windows of massive volume. How does that impact your portfolio and the predictability of your work? So we have we as I said earlier we do work across a number of different. So our portfolio is quite broad in terms of the actual sports. We work with so everything from curling to MMA to football to tennis. So it's good that we have that. Broad spectrum of clients in our portfolio that have different seasonal diaries and schedules. And that gives us some predictability based on the seasons. And when we know what will happen and when we offer within those different sports portfolios, we offer different services. So again, we know for some of our clients we have always on retainers, which which we know we have in place whether it's for the year for two years, then we also have more reactive ad hoc projects and campaigns that come in. So for me and the team, the portfolio being quite diverse, a combination of different services and sports clients gives us that is less risk, you know, because obviously we're not just working in football or just working on the Champions League. We've got that predict, but we've got that sort of security there. I think, you know, if it's very much around an event and a team, let's say being in the final that's harder to predict and mainly we work with clients to develop scenarios on that basis. So we can manage team and resourcing accordingly, but they are harder obviously to predict knowing if someone's going to be in the final and what that therefore means. Do you do you yourself strategically try to build a portfolio? Portfolio with that mix or did it just sort of happen that these differences are there? No, I mean, I think initially we were we've been very strong. I think historically in football and that's over the last sort of, I think in 11, 12 years that we pay has been established, which is quite, you know, has has really grown to sort of a much broader portfolio, which is intentional. So really looking at, you know, what what do we do in? Mass participation sports and how could so one of our big clients is Ironman and therefore what from that learning and knowledge, how can we add value to other clients in that particular sector? What we do for some of our MMA clients biggest one being obviously UFC, you know, what what can we learn from that and to approach different sort of properties in that particular space? So there are there's definitely targeted strategies to, to grow within a specific sport and then within the sports, obviously it's, you know, looking at the different formats and the changes in that that we're seeing within sports and how can we, you know, cross fertilize what we know across different different sports. So what happens if you you look at your portfolio and you see, well, we have a lot of football clients for instance, so maybe not a good idea to have more football clients, but diversify a bit, but then a big club comes knocking on your door. Well, you then say no to that club because it might might create a risk in your portfolio. And I suspect not I don't think we would say we would obviously assess the risks as part of the qualification process. We're fortunate. We don't have an over reliance on any one sports at the moment. So should that scenario of a big club in any one area come up with it wouldn't cause us major concerns and that's an ongoing exercise of just reviewing that with our senior senior leadership team just to make sure that we do have, you know, a solid cross-section of sports, but certainly if a huge club came knocking, I don't think at this point we'd need to say no. How important is brand equity and opportunity in your client selection? Will you sometimes take on or continue a client relationship where the profits aren't huge, but it might be really good for the we play brand? Yeah, I mean we're an agency. It's only around 40 people. So we're relatively small but perfectly formed. I like to say and you know working with some of these big clients does give us incredible credentials and case studies that we can use to help grow our business and hopefully bring value to wider broader cross-section of clients. And yeah, like any client we will have any agency. Sorry, we have portfolio brands that we work with that we know bring attention and perhaps position us as a top tier, an agency that can work with these top tier clients. Equally, the smaller brands that we work with or clients that are new or progressive and new are they come with their own challenges and unique challenges and ways of working. So they're also appealing to other clients that are in that would consider themselves and sort of in that I guess demographic. So that having that that range I think is really important. But brand equity is it's important to clients. Therefore, it's important to we play you mentioned contingency. There's a lot of ifs and buts in the world of sports marketing. Now coincidentally, we recently had a podcast guest who was talking about making a video with his advertising agency for when his team won the championship, but then they failed in the last minute. And all of that expensive work had to be stuck in a drawer somewhere. Is that something you've experienced yourself? And how do you deal with that volatility? To be honest, I haven't I mean the we would try and be very open and honest with the client, you know, if they are if they are asking us to do something that may or may not happen. We still need some security to have, you know, in terms of we have a deep team deployed on it. We're spending time and resource, you know, on this job. I don't think it would be I don't think it's fair of a client to expect. If it doesn't happen, they don't pay you. I have been involved where perhaps some of the work we've done not hasn't seen hasn't been launched, which is equally quite deflating but it you know, it does happen but certainly I think managing that scenario where you're not actually doing something that you wouldn't therefore be. Either paid for a remunerated for in some way. It might be that there are different ways. So you might not necessarily it might not be a payment thing. It might be more you have a credit that the client will give you or can or an agreement that there might be some additional work or opportunities for you. And I think that's where that having a an open grown-up honest conversation with the client around that scenario. I and I think that for me would be a red flag. If there was a potential that we're doing all of this work and we might not get recognized for it and I certainly think how my FD would say that too. I think we can we can wrap it up almost I maybe had one final question for you Sharon. Do you have one one project in particular you're looking forward to right now? What's on your agenda? What I'd love to be doing is is working partnering with the collaborating with a with a brand that is looking to invest in women's sport in some way and helping them really activate grow awareness. You know think about the campaigns and work across that what they're doing with that particular women's sport. So you're seeing some brand entering that space. There's still a lot of work to do but I'd love to find a partner a brand partner that that is looking to do that and work with them to make that happen. Okay. So if anyone is listening to this podcast and is in women's sports reach out to Sharon. Absolutely. Yeah, we've got lots of ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Sharon. Thank you. Thank you for all the sharp insights. You've given us a lot to think about. I do think sports marketing is an evolving branch. Let's say in the bigger marketing sphere. I think it's very interesting one to keep an eye on. So thanks for informing us on the ins and outs. Where can our listeners connect with you or learn more about we play some available on LinkedIn Sharon Bennett and we play our website is we play. Code. You can find my details on there as well. Okay. And you dear listener. Thanks again for joining us. This was Agency Life by Teamleader. Don't want to miss a single episode. Well then head over to this is agency live.com or agency live.be or agency live dot NL. So you can binge all of our lovely lovely content in between two games of your favorite sports team. Obviously catch you next time. See you. Bye-bye. This was Agency Life. Want more binge all of our content at this is agency live.com.